Hot Button Issue

Abortion is an issue that will never be resolved. There will always be someone rooting for a woman's right to her own body. Or someone picketing a clinic.

My personal view is this: if a woman could kill her own child and call that "freedom to choose" then why can't I pull out a gun and shoot someone who disfigures me as a "freedom to choose"? And why is no one protecting babies? Even doctors admit that life begins at or closely after conception.

I hope many women come here to this forum with abortion questions and find that they are strong, empowered, and CAN make the choice to give life: whether they keep it or give their child away (there is no greater sacrifice on this earth).

Joy

I don't think I could have put this better myself.
Thank you for sharing.

Hi y'all, I'm very, very pro-choice. Any choice. I feel that it is the most personal decision there is.

Andromeda, please elaborate. What exactly are your views and why you believe them? I'd be very interested to know!

njeosys wrote:

Andromeda, please elaborate. What exactly are your views and why you believe them? I'd be very interested to know!

Hi. Well, I don't know how much more I can elaborate other than to say that I believe all people have the right to control what happens to their bodies. For example, before any medical procedure is performed, patients must give their permission by way of informed consent.

Anything less than this bodily autonomy/integrity is unacceptable to me.

Currently there is a movement to give certain species of animals the right to bodily integrity. In light of this it seems particularly obscene to be discussing taking this right away from women.




source

With regard to liberty rights, Wise argues that humans have rights because they have practical autonomy. A being has practical autonomy if it (1) can desire; (2) can intentionally try to fulfill those desires; and (3) possesses a sense of self sufficiency and self-awareness. He then evaluates different animal species based upon these criteria. If they met the criteria, he then argues that they should be entitled to basic legal rights. Bodily integrity again being the basic minimum legal right.





McFall v Shimp
The question posed by the Plaintiff is that, in order to save the life of one of its members by the only means available, may society infringe upon one’s absolute right to his "bodily security"?




The common law has consistently held to a rule which provides that one human being is under no legal compulsion to give aid or to take action to save that human being or to rescue. A great deal has been written regarding this rule which, on the surface, appears to be revolting in a moral sense. Introspection, however, will demonstrate that the rule if founded upon the very essence of our free society.

I respect your point of view, but I've seen too many videos and pictures of real life babies who could've survived... dismembered and discarded like trash. Then their body parts sold to scientists. I have a hard time being reduced to "Just a blob of cells" when I was conceived. To me that is degrading. I am more than cells. And every baby at conception has all their DNA and traits set.

The way I see it is that we consider born babies human, right? But then they develop into a child. From there they develop into an adolescent. From there to an adult. An embryo is just that: a human being developing into a baby. In fact, from about 22 weeks on, an unborn baby is basically done developing and all it has left to do is fill out and grow. The youngest baby to live was born at 21 weeks.

If a woman chooses to put herself in a position of becoming pregnant, she should also be responsible to take care of her child or give it to someone who will. That is what freedom of choice should really mean. Not using abortion as birth control. It is more dangerous than we're led to believe.

Also we have to take into consideration post-abortive women and what they've undergone. The reason women have multiple abortions is because it all stems back to her very first one---she's performing ritualistic self punishment. There is a high suicide and alcohol-abuse rate among women who've undergone abortion. They also suffer severe trauma if they hear the vacuum cleaner in their own homes.

I found this quote today:

No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg. Abortion is a tragic attempt to escape a desperate situation by an act of violence and self-loss. Abortion is not a sign that women are free, but a sign that they are desperate.

As far as animals having a "right" to choose to kill their own offspring, that has more to do with survival of the fittest than, "Gee, does this animal baby really fit into my life right now?" There are only two animals in the world who could even remotely love their children as we love ours: gorillas and dolphins.

For those advocating women's rights, you really need to research just how those women feel post-abortive. And we cannot take the baby out of the equation. There is a life in the balance that has to be considered, not ignored.

njeosys wrote:

I respect your point of view, but I've seen too many videos and pictures of real life babies who could've survived... dismembered and discarded like trash.

Abortion is already illegal at this stage.

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Then their body parts sold to scientists.

Not a shred of evidence exists that any abortion doctor or clinic is knowingly involved in illegal profiteering from fetal tissue.

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I have a hard time being reduced to "Just a blob of cells" when I was conceived. To me that is degrading. I am more than cells.

Actually at the moment of fertilization you were one single cell.

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And every baby at conception has all their DNA and traits set.

Every single sperm and every single egg have all of their DNA and traits set.

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The way I see it is that we consider born babies human, right? But then they develop into a child. From there they develop into an adolescent. From there to an adult. An embryo is just that: a human being developing into a baby. In fact, from about 22 weeks on, an unborn baby is basically done developing and all it has left to do is fill out and grow.

Sperm and eggs are also human. We were all once a sperm and an egg.

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The youngest baby to live was born at 21 weeks.

Abortion is illegal after viability.

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If a woman chooses to put herself in a position of becoming pregnant, she should also be responsible to take care of her child or give it to someone who will. That is what freedom of choice should really mean. Not using abortion as birth control.

Does this mean that the real problem with abortion is the actions of the mother? Rape victims should be allowed to have abortions, then, because they didn't put themselves into a position to become pregnant.

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It is more dangerous than we're led to believe.

Abortion is safer than giving birth.

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Also we have to take into consideration post-abortive women and what they've undergone. The reason women have multiple abortions is because it all stems back to her very first one---she's performing ritualistic self punishment. There is a high suicide and alcohol-abuse rate among women who've undergone abortion. They also suffer severe trauma if they hear the vacuum cleaner in their own homes.

This is hysterical, lol!

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I found this quote today:

No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg. Abortion is a tragic attempt to escape a desperate situation by an act of violence and self-loss. Abortion is not a sign that women are free, but a sign that they are desperate.

As far as animals having a "right" to choose to kill their own offspring, that has more to do with survival of the fittest than, "Gee, does this animal baby really fit into my life right now?" There are only two animals in the world who could even remotely love their children as we love ours: gorillas and dolphins.

For those advocating women's rights, you really need to research just how those women feel post-abortive. And we cannot take the baby out of the equation. There is a life in the balance that has to be considered, not ignored.

Since post-partum depression is so common, should we make giving birth illegal?

Girl, I'm not trying to argue. So don't mess with me. Also, there are women who have abortions up until 40 weeks pregnant, legal or illegal. You need to study the physiology of pregnancy from an unbiased source and get the facts. The abortions they perform in the 2nd and 3rd trimester are called Partial Birth Abortions. They put the baby in breech position, birth their lower body so just the head is still in the womb. They stab scissors into the back of the neck and suck their brain out. That is BARBARIC. Some women choose a saline injection which was developed during the Holocaust. It causes the baby to seizure (which the mother can feel) and die.

The difference between murder and abortion is FOUR inches (the length of the vagina). A doctor can kill a baby in utero and then birth it, but cannot birth a baby and then kill it (however, this does happen even though it is illegal).

And yes, there is evidence supporting the fact that abortion clinics sell fetal parts and organs. Stem cell research, hear of that? That's also a market for using fetal stem cells. There is a huge black market for fetal body parts. Parts sell for hundreds of dollars. There is also a vaccine that contains fetal cells.

"The life of a baby begins long before he or she is born. A new individual human being begins at fertilization, when the sperm and ovum meet to form a single cell. If the baby's life is not interrupted, he or she will someday become an adult man or woman. Worldwide, millions of unborn babies are killed each year. In the United States over 40 million unborn babies have been killed in the 29 years since abortion was legalized and more than 1.3 million are killed each year."

"Dr. Albert Liley, the renowned physiologist known as the "Father of Fetology" has stated, "Biologically, at no stage of development can we subscribe to the view that the unborn child is a mere appendage of the mother. Genetically, the mother and baby are separate individuals from conception.""

After thinking about your position from the previous post, about animals having "rights" to abort, I found it quite ridiculous. And by subjecting women to having the same rights as ANIMALS is very degrading.

Post partum depression is nothing like the guilt and remorse a woman feels after an abortion. Like I said, you need to research post-abortive women and what they've gone through. Post partum depression is not remotely the same so don't try to make a point out of this. Post abortive women have severe trauma to their psyche (for example, fear of going to the doctor or of the vacuum cleaner at home). They also resort to punishing themselves by having multiple abortions, by abusing drugs and alcohol, or committing suicide. Look at the stats.

Post partum depression is a hormonal imbalance. It is not based on guilt, bitterness, remore, regret, hate (for one's self).

"Depression after pregnancy is called postpartum depression or peripartum depression. After pregnancy, hormonal changes in a woman's body may trigger symptoms of depression. During pregnancy, the amount of two female hormones, estrogen and progesterone, in a woman's body increases greatly. In the first 24 hours after childbirth, the amount of these hormones rapidly drops back down to their normal non-pregnant levels. Researchers think the fast change in hormone levels may lead to depression, just as smaller changes in hormones can affect a woman's moods before she gets her menstrual period."

The argument used by many advocates of abortion -- that abortion is safer than childbirth -- is difficult to defend in light of medical evidence to the contrary. The Abortion Surveillance Branch of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) maintains that induced abortion is safer than childbirth [75] and that the serious complication rate is less than one percent. [76] Yet there is no agreement among investigators as to what constitutes a major complication and no real national system for the reporting these kind of statistics, [77] making the accuracy of such assertions questionable. Furthermore, the experiences of private physicians and gynecologists do not seem to support the validity of the CDC’s claim. [78]

Daniel J. Martin, M.D., Ltd., clinical instructor at St. Louis University Medical School, St. Louis, Missouri, has said, "The impact of abortion on the body of a woman who chooses abortion is great and always negative. I can think of no beneficial effect of a social abortion on a body." [79]

Why is this so? Because induced abortion is the premature, willful, and violent penetration of a closed and safeguarded system -- a system in which nearly every cell, tissue and organ of a woman’s reproductive system has been specially transformed and activated to carry out the function of sustaining and nourishing the developing child. Not surprisingly, any violation of the integrity of that system can lead to serious complications. Physical problems range from hemorrhage and infection to sterility and even death. Psychological effects range from depression and mental trauma to divorce and even suicide.

NancyJo Mann is one of many who has experienced both kinds of complications. Infection and bleeding followed her abortion which eventually led to a hysterectomy. Recalling her experience, she said, "Beforehand, I liked myself. I had never entertained the idea of abortion. But the minute that needle went through my abdomen, I hated it, because I knew it could not be reversed. I wanted to scream, ‘Don’t do this to me!’"

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf12.html

There is no evidence to support abortion is safer than giving birth as the mortality rate in birth is very low.

"Maternal death, or maternal mortality, also "obstetrical death" is the death of a woman during or shortly after a pregnancy. In 2000, the United Nations estimated global maternal mortality at 529,000, of which less than 1% occurred in the developed world. However, most of these deaths have been medically preventable for decades, because treatments to avoid such deaths have been well known since the 1950s." Source= Wikipedia

Case in point---most maternal deaths in childbirth are PREVENTABLE and the rate of maternal death is less than 1% worldwide.

njeosys wrote:

Girl, I'm not trying to argue. So don't mess with me.

I'm not trying to argue with you or mess with you. I thought we were having a civilized discussion.

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Also, there are women who have abortions up until 40 weeks pregnant, legal or illegal.

I'd like to see evidence of this before I believe it. But since it is already illegal to have an abortion up to 40 weeks, I don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

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You need to study the physiology of pregnancy from an unbiased source and get the facts. The abortions they perform in the 2nd and 3rd trimester are called Partial Birth Abortions. They put the baby in breech position, birth their lower body so just the head is still in the womb. They stab scissors into the back of the neck and suck their brain out. That is BARBARIC. Some women choose a saline injection which was developed during the Holocaust. It causes the baby to seizure (which the mother can feel) and die.

Then why would women choose it? Do you have any evidence of anyone choosing it currently?

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The difference between murder and abortion is FOUR inches (the length of the vagina). A doctor can kill a baby in utero and then birth it, but cannot birth a baby and then kill it (however, this does happen even though it is illegal).

So if it is already illegal, what are you trying to accomplish?

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And yes, there is evidence supporting the fact that abortion clinics sell fetal parts and organs. Stem cell research, hear of that? That's also a market for using fetal stem cells. There is a huge black market for fetal body parts. Parts sell for hundreds of dollars. There is also a vaccine that contains fetal cells.

It's already illegal to sell and profit from human tissue, so what are you trying to accomplish?

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"The life of a baby begins long before he or she is born. A new individual human being begins at fertilization, when the sperm and ovum meet to form a single cell. If the baby's life is not interrupted, he or she will someday become an adult man or woman. Worldwide, millions of unborn babies are killed each year. In the United States over 40 million unborn babies have been killed in the 29 years since abortion was legalized and more than 1.3 million are killed each year."

The life of a baby begins well before fertilization. The egg and the sperm contain unique DNA that will someday become an adult man or woman, if the baby's life is not interrupted. Also, 40,000 born children from all around the world die everyday from starvation and other related, preventable causes. That's 14.6 million per year. Over the last 29 years, 423.4 million born children have starved to death or died from starvation related diseases. As far as unborn life goes, miscarriage and fertilized eggs that don't implant account for much more death than abortion or starvation. For every birth, 9 fertilized eggs or embryos die before they are born. So, if 1.3 million are aborted, that means an additional 11.7 died from miscarriage. If 40 million unborn died over the last 29 years, that means that an additional 360 million died from miscarriage.
(I'm using the term "miscarriage" to include fertilized eggs that failed to implant as well as embryos that implanted by died afterwards.)


The point is, abortion is a tiny amount of death when compared with other types of death.
1.3 million embryos aborted, vs. 11.7 dying from miscarriage, and 14.6 million born children dying per year from starvation, etc.

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"Dr. Albert Liley, the renowned physiologist known as the "Father of Fetology" has stated, "Biologically, at no stage of development can we subscribe to the view that the unborn child is a mere appendage of the mother. Genetically, the mother and baby are separate individuals from conception.""

Genetically the sperm and egg are separate individuals before conception. They are undeniably part of men's and women's bodies.

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After thinking about your position from the previous post, about animals having "rights" to abort, I found it quite ridiculous. And by subjecting women to having the same rights as ANIMAlS is very degrading.

I never said anything about animals having the right to abort.

njeosys wrote:

The argument used by many advocates of abortion -- that abortion is safer than childbirth -- is difficult to defend in light of medical evidence to the contrary. The Abortion Surveillance Branch of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) maintains that induced abortion is safer than childbirth [75] and that the serious complication rate is less than one percent. [76] Yet there is no agreement among investigators as to what constitutes a major complication and no real national system for the reporting these kind of statistics, [77] making the accuracy of such assertions questionable. Furthermore, the experiences of private physicians and gynecologists do not seem to support the validity of the CDC’s claim. [78]

Daniel J. Martin, M.D., Ltd., clinical instructor at St. Louis University Medical School, St. Louis, Missouri, has said, "The impact of abortion on the body of a woman who chooses abortion is great and always negative. I can think of no beneficial effect of a social abortion on a body." [79]

Why is this so? Because induced abortion is the premature, willful, and violent penetration of a closed and safeguarded system -- a system in which nearly every cell, tissue and organ of a woman’s reproductive system has been specially transformed and activated to carry out the function of sustaining and nourishing the developing child. Not surprisingly, any violation of the integrity of that system can lead to serious complications. Physical problems range from hemorrhage and infection to sterility and even death. Psychological effects range from depression and mental trauma to divorce and even suicide.

NancyJo Mann is one of many who has experienced both kinds of complications. Infection and bleeding followed her abortion which eventually led to a hysterectomy. Recalling her experience, she said, "Beforehand, I liked myself. I had never entertained the idea of abortion. But the minute that needle went through my abdomen, I hated it, because I knew it could not be reversed. I wanted to scream, ‘Don’t do this to me!’"

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/ASMF/asmf12.html

There is no evidence to support abortion is safer than giving birth as the mortality rate in birth is very low.

"Maternal death, or maternal mortality, also "obstetrical death" is the death of a woman during or shortly after a pregnancy. In 2000, the United Nations estimated global maternal mortality at 529,000, of which less than 1% occurred in the developed world. However, most of these deaths have been medically preventable for decades, because treatments to avoid such deaths have been well known since the 1950s." Source= Wikipedia

Case in point---most maternal deaths in childbirth are PREVENTABLE and the rate of maternal death is less than 1% worldwide.

ABORTION IS SAFE.

Since 1973, abortion has become the most often performed outpatient surgery. Thousands of doctors across the country have learned to provide abortion using the safest medical techniques. Today, abortion is about 10 times safer than giving birth.

It is safer to have an abortion than it is to go through labor and delivery. A first trimester abortion is 11.8 times safer than childbirth. A second trimester abortion is also safer than childbirth.

Can I still have children later in life?

Regardless of method, abortion is 20 times safer than childbirth. Infections are the greatest threat to fertility, not abortion. Childbearing is not affected, barring rare, serious complications.



The CDC gives the overall risk of maternal death in childbirth in the US, from all causes, not only Clostridium infection, as 7-8 deaths per 100,000 live births (varying tremendously by ethnic group). That is to say, medical abortion using RU-486 or its components has a death rate 5 to 8 times lower than pregnancy itself, and abortion by all methods is about the same.

njeosys wrote:

Post partum depression is nothing like the guilt and remorse a woman feels after an abortion. Like I said, you need to research post-abortive women and what they've gone through. Post partum depression is not remotely the same so don't try to make a point out of this. Post abortive women have severe trauma to their psyche (for example, fear of going to the doctor or of the vacuum cleaner at home). They also resort to punishing themselves by having multiple abortions, by abusing drugs and alcohol, or committing suicide. Look at the stats.

Post partum depression is a hormonal imbalance. It is not based on guilt, bitterness, remore, regret, hate (for one's self).

"Depression after pregnancy is called postpartum depression or peripartum depression. After pregnancy, hormonal changes in a woman's body may trigger symptoms of depression. During pregnancy, the amount of two female hormones, estrogen and progesterone, in a woman's body increases greatly. In the first 24 hours after childbirth, the amount of these hormones rapidly drops back down to their normal non-pregnant levels. Researchers think the fast change in hormone levels may lead to depression, just as smaller changes in hormones can affect a woman's moods before she gets her menstrual period."

Most women report that having an abortion is not traumatic for them (Major & Cozzarelli, 1992). Only 1% of women who undergo an abortion are later diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) because of this experience. Not only is this percentage low in and of itself, it is also less than that national prevalence rate for PTSD (Major et al, 2000). Instead of the abortion causing distress, it appears that the time of greatest stress is before the abortion, not after, as women are forced to cope with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy (Russo & Zierk, 1992). Several studies have found that the most common emotion experienced by women after freely choosing to have an abortion is relief (51%; Lemaku, 1988; Adler et al, 1990; Adler, 1975; Adler et al, 1992). Women’s levels of depression have been found to decrease after the abortion, regardless of later adjustment (Major & Cozzarelli, 1992; Major et al, 2000). 85% of women have no or mild levels of depression within 30 minutes of an abortion (Major & Cozzarelli, 1992) and negative emotions such as anxiety, depression, anger, guilt, and shame dropped to mild levels in women within 24 hours after having an abortion—including women who were less well adjusted after the abortion (Payne et al, 1976). Other studies have found that women’s internally and externally based negative emotions, such as loss, guilt, or social disapproval, are generally mild and short lived while positive emotions, such as relief and happiness, are felt strongly (Adler et al, 1990; Adler, 1975; Adler et al, 1992). Women who were assessed two to three months post-abortion were found to have more positive than negative emotions (Adler, 1975) and at six months post-abortion 90% of women interviewed reported feeling satisfied (Lask, 1975). Additionally, it has been demonstrated that abortion has no effect on women’s well-being, regardless of the number of abortions (Russo & Zierk, 1992).

Em, thank-you for your considerate words. Also, I am very sorry for your loss.

Yes, like I said in my very first post, this is not something that anyone can debate and reach a conclusion to. There is so much information out there and available. But I still do not believe abortion is ethically or morally correct or humane. Andromeda, you really need to do more extensive research. I wish you the best of luck with that, though I doubt you'll take the time or care to do it.

njeosys wrote:

Yes, like I said in my very first post, this is not something that anyone can debate and reach a conclusion to. There is so much information out there and available. But I still do not believe abortion is ethically or morally correct or humane. Andromeda, you really need to do more extensive research. I wish you the best of luck with that, though I doubt you'll take the time or care to do it.

If only you knew how funny that is. And incorrect on all counts.

Just because a person does not agree with you does not mean they haven't extensively researched the subject, and doesn't care to continue doing so.

You can think whatever you like is funny. I stopped the discussion because you have no basis for your information. It is just you spewing opinion, not fact. I have done extensive research and I have resources available to me that you can only dream about. There are things that Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics do not want you to know/see. Currently working at a pro-life preg. center, I have that information available to me.

Also, because of the chapter I am involved in, I can no longer continue this debate. So laugh away, sweetie. But I still think you need to research from an unbiased source. Nothing I have said was wrong but is factual and I have resources. Unfortunately, because of the pregnancy center I am involved with, I am not permitted to share those with you. But you're more than welcome to do your own research.

njeosys wrote:

You can think whatever you like is funny. I stopped the discussion because you have no basis for your information. It is just you spewing opinion, not fact. I have done extensive research and I have resources available to me that you can only dream about.

Really? Why don't you point out the statements to which you refer. I have provided sources for every thing I have stated. I will gladly provide any additional back-up you would like.

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There are things that Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics do not want you to know/see. Currently working at a pro-life preg. center, I have that information available to me.

Also, because of the chapter I am involved in, I can no longer continue this debate. So laugh away, sweetie. But I still think you need to research from an unbiased source. Nothing I have said was wrong but is factual and I have resources. Unfortunately, because of the pregnancy center I am involved with, I am not permitted to share those with you. But you're more than welcome to do your own research.

So, Planned Parenthood has things they don't want the public to see, and the pregnancy center you work out does also. I guess that makes them even.

I was using the term "funny" as in "ironic". Sorry that escaped you. I think the reason you stopped the discussion is because you cannot refute the things I've said with anything concrete. You are "projecting" (psychological term., look it up) onto me exactly how you feel about your half of the discussion.